You'll never guess what they're challenging now.

From nj.com:

"Bottom line, that material is bizarre," said Jeff Gellenthin, who learned about the material through one of his daughter's friends. Gellenthin, also of Mantua Township, expressed his concerns in a fiery e-mail sent to the school last week where he characterized the translation as "pornography" and "sheer smut."

C'mon.  Guess before you follow the link.  Just do it.  I bet you a bazillion dollars that you'll be wrong.

Comments

[Tom]

The Penthouse Letters argument is just as valid as the violence vs. sex argument that I seem to read a lot in the comments on this site.

I did not say that the BEHAVIOR becomes acceptable but that reading this type of sexualy explicit material is made acceptable. If this is OK then why not Penthouse letters? And if you want an example of a teacher using them I can think of a female teacher who read them to one of her students as a reading excercise.

Think about this, would you be comfortable with a male teacher reading and discussing that excerpt with your 14 year old daughter?

And you may have meant that sex was discussed in middle school but would anyone read this and think you were just talking about discussions? "And from what I remember, sex was pretty darned prevalent in middle school..." Of course, your experience is extremely limited having attended exactly one extremely atypical (30 students, correct?) middle school.

[nrkii]

Liz and Leila, thanks for the comments you've added to the discussion over on my blog as well. I find this topic fascinating, and have been reading back and forth much of the day.

About the age-group, I agree that many 14 to 16 year old kids are quite mature, have read plenty of sex scenes and may even have engaged in sex themselves. But many are not so advanced. 15 is that age when some kids are mature, and some are still really kids. And while it is one thing to read the sex scenes in Forever when you're at your friend's house and her older sister isn't looking, it is quite another to be asked to read and discuss similar scenes in a classroom.

Also, I'd draw a sharp distinction between the age when sex education should happen (when I was in school, it was 6th and 7th grades) and the reading material we're talking about here. Just because a book is a classic doesn't mean it's okay for every age.

[Leila]

If you equate Gilgamesh with The Penthouse Letters, then we really aren't going to find any common ground on this one, Tom.

And there were 92 in my graduating class, 600 in the school, grades 7-12. That's discounting my time working in a middle school library, my years running a middle school book group, and my time at my current job working around the corner from the Teen Section. The things kids say when their parents aren't around...

[Leila]

I think, too, nrkii, that it would be interesting to see if the class reading Gilgamesh is the general-level English class or an AP-type class.

I remember reading the sexy bits Forever with friends on the school bus AND in the playground. We were SO into it.

And I do agree that there's a broad range of maturity levels at that age (really, at any age). And personal beliefs factor in, too. But that's one of the many reasons that I think the opt-out/alternate assignment option is a good one.

Anyhoo. Yes, it is a very interesting discussion.

[Tom]

The point isn't Gilgamesh, the point is the translation. Why did the school switch to this translation when there was a translation that wasn't as explicit? Let's say that the translation was, "He fucked her for seven solid days until his legs were weary and his cum was exhausted." Would that be unacceptable to ban? After all, it is Gilgamesh! Again you ignored the question, how would you feel about a 25 year old male teacher reading and discussing that section with your 14 year old daughter? Would you find that acceptable?

Is it ever acceptable to ban anything in your world? Is a school library that serves 11 year olds and 18 year olds required to carry books that are only appropriate for 18 year olds? And why is it that only the librarian can decide what can be in the schol library and the taxpayers and the school board get no say? You are right that there is no common ground between us for the simple reason that you refuse to respect parents. In your world parents should just shut up and stay out of the way and let "grown ups" decide what their children should read.

[nrkii]

Hmmmmm. Tom, your last post seems a bit over the top, emotion wise. Just my opinion.

Leila, I agree that the opt-out/alternate assignment option is a good one. I wonder if many parents and students know it exists.

I wouldn't distinguish between standard English class vs. an advanced or AP class. The intelligence or scholastic aptitude of the child isn't what I would care about here. For me it would be about the emotional maturity of the kids.

I think I read the sexy bits of Forever in class, but it was when the teacher wasn't looking!

[Tom]

I guess I'm offended because there seems to be an implicit belief here that ANY parent who objects to anything a teacher assigns must be an idiot.

Opt-out is NEVER a good option. It stigmatizes the child at an age when children are very sensitive to that. "Your parents are freaks!" The better solution in this case would simply to have continued with the other translation. Why the need to change?

[Tom]

This came off a little stronger than I wanted (one of the problems with written vs. verbal communication). But there is a legitimate question here... do the school librarian and the teachers have a responsibility to insure that the materials they provide are appropriate for the age groups they are teaching and for the community standards? Should parents have any recourse if they disagree with the decisions made by school librarians and teachers?

[Leila]

nrkii, it's a pretty standard set-up -- or, at least, I think it is -- practically every case I read about mentions there being an alternative reading option. I do understand what you mean about the emotional maturity of the kids -- when I worked in the bookstore (another place where I was able of overhear the AMAZING things that come out of middle-schoolers' mouths when their parents aren't around), we had loads of parents that INSISTED that their precocious 7-year-olds were totally ready for His Dark Materials. Yeah. Anyway. Like I said before, I think it's a matter of opinion because people vary so much. I know a whole lot of v. emotionally mature 14-15-year-olds, so I guess it's possible that my perception is skewed.

Tom, Having the entire class switch translations, mid-book, doesn't sound like a better solution to me. I think I addressed stigma in my another comment. Beats me at this point.

Parents do have recourse. In terms of pleasure reading: Best case scenario, they sit down with their kid and talk to them about what they feel is acceptable reading material. I have some parents here who come in with their kids, the kids pick books, bring them to the parent, the parent goes through the stack and chooses the books that they deem 'okay'. If they aren't sure about the content of the book, they check with me to see if I've read it. If I have, I tell them about any questionable stuff I can think of -- and I'm always very straight-up about the fact that memory can be faulty -- and I show them the databases I mentioned before (if I haven't already.) That's in a library setting.

Classroom setting gets dicier. But, in my opinion, the same standard applies -- a parent can make a decision about their own kid's reading material, but not someone else's. Again, that's my issue with the Gilgamesh guy. He's trying to make that decision for everyone, not just his own kid.

[Tom]

"Classroom setting gets dicier. But, in my opinion, the same standard applies -- a parent can make a decision about their own kid's reading material, but not someone else's. Again, that's my issue with the Gilgamesh guy. He's trying to make that decision for everyone, not just his own kid."

Again, what you are saying is that it is OK for a teacher to make decisions about what children they have known for a week get to read but it is not OK for a parent to participate in that decision for their children and the other children in the class many who they have probably known for years.

"Tom, Having the entire class switch translations, mid-book, doesn't sound like a better solution to me."

The question is, why did they switch to this translation at all? Did they ask the school board or the PTA for input into the switch?

[Leila]

They probably switched to the Mitchell translation (maybe -- I don't remember the article specifying that the school even taught Gilgamesh before) because it got amazing reviews, some of which specified that the new translation was extremely accessible and good for "classroom reading". No, the reviews that I read did not specify an age range.

As I said in the Book Ratings post, I'm done.

[Tom]

Yes, indeed you are done. The opinion of parents don't matter to you and aren't worth discussing. I understand you completely.

Anyway, here is a review of the Mitchell translation:

Stephen Mitchell is no Assyriologist - and he's not much of a poet either. His "new English version" of Gilgamesh is rightly not billed as a translation - it is, in fact, something closer to a retelling, and this rendering of one of humanity's oldest and most profound poems is a shameful attempt to Homerize Gilgamesh into a rollicking Western sword-and-sandal saga. Mitchell dispenses with the incantatory rhythms of the original, opting instead for self-conscious postmodernism, devoid of metaphor and, often, sense. His work makes for a text far more remote than the four thousand-year-old Akkadian original. He even divides Gigamesh into an apostrophe and eleven "books", as if it's the Iliad rather than a bunch of broken, worm-eaten clay tablets he's offering up.

The accompanying notes and essays are full of guesswork and shoddy or superannuated scholarship. Worst of all, Mitchell presents a Gilgamesh tale complete and without blemish, even though we have only about two-thirds of it and much of the epic still remains to be deciphered.

Andrew George's $8 synoptic edition on Penguin is a much better buy. George, a scholar not a poet, adheres slavishly to the original clay tablets and ends up with something that - heavens! - actually reads like poetry. Bless him! And damn Stephen Mitchell for having the crust to think he had something to bring to the table of the great and all-too-mortal King of Uruk.

[nrkii]

Well, it's a pity that the debate has gotten to a point where it's too emotional to continue. I enjoyed the discussion yesterday, and felt I learned a few things, and was able to carefully consider my own thoughts by engaging in this conversation.

Thanks Leila!

[Leila]

Thank you, too, nrkii.

[Jennifer Low]

Well, now that everyone has tried to tear me up for standing up for my daughter, I thought I would let you in on the full story of what exactly happened. There are too many of you people going on a piece of a newspaper article. You should get the full story before you judge.

My daughter came home from school upset. When I asked her what was wrong, she told me that she had to read something in class that made her uncomfortable and that she thought it was sort of pornographic. So I told her that I wanted to see it. It was very graphic detailed material. My daughter told me her teacher told them there were some parts that were pornographic, but they could read those quietly. Most than one student confirmed that the teacher said this. So if they knew it was pornographic, then why did they not give them another version of the book without this material. They had one at the school, but they chose not to use it. I went to the principal the next day and showed him the material. He was in shock over the material as well and said he would do some research into it. Their solution was to have my daughter either go to the library and read something else, or give her the clean version to read. I never asked for the book to be banned. I asked why they didn't give the kids the clean version. Does it make any sense to you to allow someone to read sexually explicit material, but tell them that spaghetti straps are not allowed? Which is more harmful to your child? If more parents took the time to know what their children were learning in school, they might be upset at what they see. Luckily, I have the type of relationship with my daughter where she feels comfortable talking to me. I can understand a book like this in college, but in high school, it should be the clean version. And people don't understand why there is such a high rate of teen pregnancies in our country. We have to protect our children. Remember they are children until they are 18. If I don't stand to protect my daughter, who else will. I did what I did for my daughter's sake. If you don't agree, then you can let your kid read whatever they want. I have to answer for my own actions. And so will you. So what I did was right. I did it for my daughter. Sadly she was treated pretty badly by the teacher after that and accused of trying to get her fired. We never asked for any of that. We only stated why we were concerned over the material and wanted to know why they didn't give the children the clean version in the school especially since they had it there. They were reading off of photocopied pages anyway, so why not photocopy the clean version. I had no problem with her reading that one and she didn't mind either. So your words of saying that we tried to ban the book were wrong. This is what happened. I won't apologize for it, but you surely needed to know the full story.

[Ted LOW - Father of the Offended Daughter and Husband to the upset Mother]

1. No permission slip was sent by the School.
2. The SCHOOL did not respond to my wife's complaint until 2 days later, after they found out about her going to the local newspaper. The school IMMEDIATELY issued a tamer version, of which they had MULTIPLE copies. The reason given for choosing the adult version was to use an audio recording to play during class. So, those New Jersey residents that can't read (Bible or other tomes) would be able to hear the story read to them in all its titillating glory.
3. Gellenthin has children in the same class and only found out because of my family members' speaking out about it.
4. Apparently, liberals with no morals run your schools and school boards. Change that - not liberals, EGALITARIANS. Glad my family is out of your wonderful state.

[Lindsay Low Expressing my Thoughts.....]

Ok So this is my side of view on the whole matter. Most of you people are very rude to think that this was all my mom's idea and other stuff. I felt more than uncomfortable reading that....Once I read it I kinda just stopped reading the book all together. I didn't like it. I mean you guys weren't reading it. You didn't feel uncomfortable knowing that the school was basically making you read this. I mean come on. Look at this from my view. I had to read about a girl touching herself and putting a guy inside her. Just typing that up right now grosses me out beyond words. Maybe you moronic adults need to think about how your kids would look at this. I mean would you rather have your kids reading stuff like or clean stuff. Do you want to tell your kids about sex and be able to talk to them one on one about it so they know the facts instead of them going out and finding out through experience? I'd rather read clean stuff that says nothing about people and their digusting keep-to-yourself body parts then reading dirty stuff that goes into detail! I'd rather have my mom tell me about stuff than find out through friends or worse complete strangers. I mean what has this society come to when girls are getting pregnant at 9? When kids read stuff like that they become curious and end up finding out for themselves. Even though it is high school I think its just as bad as if you'd given it to a preschooler. And people can learn about literature without having to read about sex.

Think about it as if you were actually the person reading it. You are adults. Most of you have already had that kind of stuff happen. You are married and are used to it. But I am a teenager. I don't want to hear, read, or talk about nasty stuff like that.

-Lindsay

[Leila]

Thank you to the Low family for weighing in on what is probably a very emotional subject for them. (I'm judging by how emotional everyone here got last October, obviously. One would think that actually being directly involved with the debate -- and having your names thrown around willy-nilly -- would make it even more so.)

[Lindsay again]

Do you not believe that those were really my parents responding? I could tell you the teachers name what she looked like what period it was and that she was newly married and had a new dog ^.^ and when they gave me the new version I had to go to the library and sit and read it in this weird circle type part of the room. Someone sent my mom the URL to this page through email.

-Lindsay

[Leila]

No, sorry if you got that impression. I believe that you are who you say you are. (And your parents too, of course.) But as this debate took place back in October, I doubt that anyone but me will respond (as I run the site, I can tell where & when people are commenting).

Anyway. I am sorry for the personal remarks that were made at the beginning of the debate. Book challenges have been happening so regularly in the last few years that it's easy to read a news article and overreact. (I'm not making excuses for the snarky remarks, just trying to explain them.)

Anyway. This is what I said in my October 11th comment:

"It is totally okay (in my opinion) for a parent to ask that their own child be given different material. That's what Low did and that's what one other parent did.

But, also according to the article, another parent -- Jeff Gellenthin -- is challenging the use of the book, period. That's what I take issue with -- if he doesn't want his kid to read it, fine. But he can't make that decision for anyone else."

That's where I stand when it comes to book challenges. It's just my opinion, obviously. I just don't like the idea of someone else telling my kids that they can't read something. That's up to me.

And again, Lindsay (& family), I'm sorry for any snarky personal comments that I made, and that any of the other commenters made.

[Kelly Fineman]

I wondered why I got an email at my website over something I had no recollection of (or, really, the same email twice), and fortunately when I googled "book ban gilgamesh", this came up. At least I know what the email was all about now. Phew.

[Lindsay]

Oh well thank you for expressing your thoughts. I did get that impression but thank you for telling me what you really meant.

-Lindsay